How to get your kids to listen - SE4EP9 - Sue Meintjes

Today, we are thrilled to have Sue Meintjes, co-founder of Expert Parenting Advice, join us. Sue is a mom of two young kids from New Zealand, who embarked on a transformative journey to discover the best parenting techniques from leading experts around the world. She started a podcast, Then compiled these insights into her newly published ebook, "How to Get Your Kids to Listen," which we will discuss in detail today. Sue's quest began from a place of parenting frustration, leading her to uncover strategies that have significantly improved her family dynamics. We are excited to learn more about her experiences and the practical advice she has gathered.
https://www.expertparentingadvice.com/
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AI Generated Transcription

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Parenting in the Digital Age podcast. Many parents are concerned that their child might be falling behind. Others are just looking for ways to help their children thrive, not just in the classroom, but socially and well into their future careers. Each episode we explore the challenges facing parents in the modern world, from behavior, education, and nutrition to device and gaming addiction. We interview a range of leaders in the area of childhood development to help you successfully navigate parenting in the digital age. Here is your host, Jamie Buttigieg.

Introduction
Jamie (00:00.49)
Hello parents and welcome to another episode of Parenting in the Digital Age. Today I'm excited to have joining us Sue Meintjes, who is the founder of Expert Parenting Advice. Sue's a mother of two young children who lives in New Zealand, and she embarked on a transformative journey to discover the best parenting advice and techniques from leading experts around the world. She started a podcast and then compiled these insights into a newly published ebook called, How to Get Your Kids to Listen, which we'll discuss in detail today.
Sue's quest began from a place of parenting frustration, leading her to uncover strategies that have significantly improved her family dynamics. So we're excited to learn more about her experience as journey and journey and the practical advice that she's gathered.

Interview
Jamie (00:00.668)
Sue, welcome to the show. I'm very excited to have you with us. Before we jump in, maybe just share with our listeners a bit about what you do and what you are passionate
Sue Meintjes (00:13.75)
as always been, or actually before I've been a parent was to become a mom. I've always dreamed of becoming a mom. I still remember one university speech I gave and I talked about how badly I wanted to have children and ever since I've been dreaming about having children. And then I finally met the guy who would make my dream come true and it took a while for us to have children. We only had to spend a lot of alone time together.
and I dreamed about having a little boy first and a little girl. And then about almost eight years ago, that dream came true. I got my little boy. He's turning eight in October. And then two years later, I got a girl. So that is my passion. And I've done lots of things in my life, but I've never been able to find a career that I feel passionate about, and that is parenting.
And it all started with being a parent myself and having the normal frustrations of being a mom who feels like the children aren't listening to her. And I even got badly hurt from them not listening to me. So it's been a long journey. Yeah.
Jamie (01:22.532)
Now that journey of parenthood has taken you on a wonderful adventure. You've got a podcast, you've released a book here that's called How to Get Your Kids to Listen. so tell us a bit about how that came about. So the journey of being a mother to, you know, effectively a parenting expert writing books, how did that leap occur?
Sue Meintjes (01:44.57)
So the whole, before you have children, you have a dream about how it will be and you are not aware of all the frustrations and the problems that you will encounter and how difficult it is. It is really difficult being a parent, having grandchildren, the lack of sleep, the children not listening, all the frustrations. So it's much more difficult than you would ever thought. So I had a difficult time in
in the beginning of my children's younger years, it was really difficult for me. And I constantly felt like they weren't listening to me. And I took them to the beach one day. I think it was just before lockdown. And my son was about two and a half and my daughter must have been. Maybe my son was three and my daughter was one, I'd say. And we went to the beach.
And suddenly my son just ran away from me. He ran away towards the street and said, he's going to get ice cream. And I yelled after him, don't run away, there's cars, there's a road. And I didn't see a hole and I stepped in a hole and I fell. I like sprained my ankle and my little daughter was in my arms, but I, accidentally fell on the ground and luckily she was okay. But,
I couldn't walk for months after that and I had to get help at home and rehabilitation on my ankle and everything. And that was just from my three year old that was used to following its own mind and not listening to its parents. that was when my struggle and my desire to find the answers to get my child to listen came from. And it's not a nice feeling if you feel your children aren't listening to you.
So that's how it all started. I decided to find an interview, the world's leading parenting experts and ask them one question. How do I get my children to listen or how can you get children to listen? And it's been a great journey so far. I've learned a lot and I've listened to our book yesterday again and there's really great advice. I'm so thankful for everyone that agreed to be part of this book to change my life and change.
Sue Meintjes (04:02.358)
all the lives of the people that read the book.
Jamie (04:06.64)
Yeah, that's a wonderful journey because first of all, you know, recognizing that you had a challenge and that not just accepting the status quo, but actually saying, well, what can I do as a parent? How can I become a better parent? So well done for acknowledging that we all have those moments in our parenting journey. But then to taking the step, like it's a big step to say, I'm going to create a podcast, I'm going to contact, you know, some of the world's leading parenting experts and doctors and psychologists and bring them together for a podcast. then
take their advice, put it together in a book. So it's been a wonderful journey. Maybe, I don't know, here's one question I've got here is, you share a specific example of a technique that you've learned that's had a great impact on your children's behavior?
Sue Meintjes (04:53.176)
Well, all of the techniques are centered on a few things, that is seeing your child, making your child feel seen and just connecting with your child. And it's all about doing things that are in your control of doing. But one specific technique is called curious waiting. So many times when you feel rushed, you feel you want your child to listen now, you don't take the moment to connect with them. You would
say TV off now, we say, put on your shoes, we're going to school now. You don't take the time to just observe your child to be in the moment and to give them a few minutes. And that is where the curious waiting comes in. You are curious with your child and then you wait a bit with your child. So the other morning I implemented it and we were late for school as always and they were busy playing and
before having this technique in mind, I would have rushed them and not connected with them and said, we should go now. Instead I joined the player, sat on the ground. I looked at what they were doing for a few minutes. I asked curious questions and just like the change of rushing them or not rushing them and then step in curious and waiting with them and being patient and present with them. It really connects with them and it makes a difference.
how they perceive you and how willing they are to cooperate and then it's much smoother to get them out of the door.
Jamie (06:27.418)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great technique. So how about then in the moment when like, let's say back to your previous example, when my child's running away, and I'm asking this as a curious grandfather now, I've got a two and a half year old granddaughter and we have the joy and the pleasure of looking after her on a Friday usually in our household. And she likes to do things like run off and you know, when it's a matter of safety.
How do you handle those? Would you handle that same situation differently or is it a matter of conditioning and behavior so that they don't run away? What do you do when you're caught in that moment, the kid's about to do something difficult or challenging? I feel sometimes it's difficult not to raise your voice as a parent or grandparent and to get stressed, particularly if they're going for the knife in the knife drawer or the stove or something that's quite dangerous. Any advice on how you would handle those situations?
Sue Meintjes (07:24.142)
Well, the first thing that came up for me, I'm actually at the moment, I'm busy studying to become a certified parenting coach. And one of the things I've learned is that some behaviors are just developmentally appropriate. It's like for a two and a half, three year old to do something responsible to run away or to go for a knife that is developmentally appropriate. And you can't always change that behavior. You can always change yourself.
But then it's okay to raise your voice if it's a dangerous situation, don't have to feel bad about it. But in some ways, you can just like accept your child as they are and have a conversation with them and maybe problem solve with them. Like Dr. Ross Green said in my book, it's about finding solutions to problems with your children, talking to them if they are big enough or just like having the conversation, I think, and it really
Jamie (08:23.074)
Yeah, that's interesting because it's, you know, I often hear our daughter sort of having those conversations. She's a wonderful parent and mother. She reads lots of books and takes parenting very seriously, as we all do as parents. But I think, you know, perhaps the generationally, you know, I was raised with the view that you don't negotiate with a two year old, you tell them what you want them to do. And that's got its outcomes as well. Well, what do you say to the old school parents or grandparents out there who
to encourage them to have that more, I don't know, present approach, curious approach, questioning approach.
Sue Meintjes (09:03.222)
What comes to mind is, I've heard somewhere, I think to be curious, you need to have empathy. You need to put yourself in your child's shoes and think what they need, what they are feeling and just have a mind set which is reading their minds. But in order to have empathy for someone else, you have to have empathy for yourself. You can't give empathy if you don't have empathy for
So in order to be curious, in order to have empathy for your child, have empathy for yourselves, like you can say this technique is also in the book, it's the A -L -L technique. You acknowledge something, you would say, my child doesn't listen, it frustrates me, or my child reaches for the knife, or my child ran away from me, it's frustrating. And then you link it, you say, of course it's frustrating, it bothers you because it's upsetting.
or because of stuff with your boss, and then you take a deep breath and you let it go. So that is a way that you can practice having empathy for yourself and just know sometimes, and a lot of times there are things in parenting that your childhood comes out, your childhood triggers you. I think for me, you are feeling my children doesn't listen to me. It's just a feeling I've got. It's not always true, but it may have come
stuff left over from childhood as well. So in order to be more gentle and more kind to yourself, it's important to have empathy for yourself.
Jamie (10:40.07)
Yeah, it's important to manage your own emotions and regulate that. for many, it's not always easy because they're not tools that as humans we're naturally equipped with. They're tools that we need to go out and source and learn and educate ourselves in order to control the most valuable piece of real estate, our mindset. And the mindset's important. I certainly look after my mindset in terms of business, but it's even more important as a parent. And I think
you know, having emotional intelligence is something that we need to maybe spend more time on in schools and, certainly as parents, but we have a responsibility as parents, I think, to learn those skills first, if we want to raise the next generation the right way. In your book, How to Get Your Kids to Listen, Dr. Ross Green talks about problem solving, solving problems with kids rather than trying to fix their behavior. Can you elaborate a bit on that approach or maybe some examples?
Sue Meintjes (11:41.09)
Yeah, I recently read Dr. Shefali Tabari's book about a conscious parent. And that is a little bit about, it's about becoming a conscious parent by helping your child to solve problems instead of focusing on him, your child being the problem, your child not listening is the problem. That is an unaware, unconscious way of parenting is to focus on the problem behavior, to focus on what you are struggling with, what bothers you.
what triggers you and to just focus on that. But to become a more conscious and a more aware parent is to look inside yourself, look in your feelings and your emotions and also seeing your child who they are, accepting them who they are. And that comes into helping your child instead of thinking he's not listening, why are you not listening, thinking.
He has problems of this and that is where Dr. Roskreen also said to identify the lacking skills. It's like my son has problems of impulse control. And then you can have a chat with your husband or your partner and then you can chat with your child and then you can solve problems together. Instead of making your frustration a problem, you find solutions.
Jamie (12:59.834)
Yeah. And so in terms of, we spoke briefly about parents regulating their own emotions effectively so as to become a better parent. How can we as parents teach our children to manage their emotions effectively?
Sue Meintjes (13:17.434)
That is a tricky one because the truth is they learn by observing us. We are their role models. If we can't control our own emotions, they won't be able to control their emotions because they are very much until very much later in life, they are unable to self -regulate to self -control their emotions like their prefrontal cortex needs to develop and that happens only
in their teen years, maybe even in their twenties, their prefrontal cortex are only developed. And before that, they are not really able to self -regulate. They need us to co -regulate with them to be their calm, to show them how to be calm, to show them that, we've got emotions, are humans. We also get upset, we get triggered, but this is how we handle it. This is what we do. then also,
If you are talking to your child in a more calm manner and you are feeling calm and you're able to feel calm, they will pick up on that and they will also learn how to regulate themselves in due time. But that is not good news because it takes a long time.
Jamie (14:32.75)
It does take a long time indeed. So how can parents implement natural consequences instead of punishment to teach children self -regulation?
Sue Meintjes (14:44.898)
That is a difficult one because to use punishments and threats and timeouts and yelling and stuff is like the authoritarian power over parenting way of doing things. And you get like your parenting style, whether you are power over and you yell and you threaten, you take away stuff or you are power under and you say, he can do what he wants to do. Or you are power with that you allow your child
too.
have the natural consequence to be more peaceful. But that is all dependent about how you were raised. So you get your attachment style if you are power over and you yell, probably your parents yelled at you, probably they used threats and that is difficult to break. It is difficult to break. But if you find yourself using threats, you find yourself yelling or doing anything in a power over.
parenting style, and you want to be more considerate and compassionate of your child. One thing I've learned from Dr. Lawrence Cohen, when I interviewed him, he said to identify your triggers. And usually when you get triggered, you when you go into threats, or you go into yelling or you go into power over parenting. And he recommended that when you get triggers and you yell or you trigger and you threaten.
get triggered, that you write it down, you keep a journal of what happened when you got triggered, how you felt, what your child did and also how you want to respond and that is the important part is to write down how you would like to have responded or how you would like to respond next time. So it's always a, you are a work in progress and you are
Sue Meintjes (16:41.74)
influenced by your childhood, how you were raised and your default pattern comes from your childhood most of the times, but it doesn't mean that you're set in a certain parenting style like power over. You can be more with your child and be more compassionate if you work on yourself, like for example with a trigger -dragger diary.
Jamie (17:06.138)
Yeah, yeah, really important and something I'm trying to learn again is, know, when you're a parent, my kids are all older now, but having grandkids, sort of have the opportunity again to learn and reshape yourself and hopefully become a better person. Have your own, see, I'm curious, have your own relationships with your children changed since, you know, you've embarked on this journey of interviewing and writing this book.
Sue Meintjes (17:37.97)
Yeah, my relationship is definitely better. Like, I don't know if it was because of the stress of lockdown or the stress of having young children or whatever it was, but it was like, I always wanted to have children. was my dream. And then it was difficult. It was really difficult having young children that were fighting, that were not listening. And lockdown, of course, made it difficult with them being at home all the time.
And they were like moments where I regretted having children and it's sad to say and I feel ashamed for saying it. I felt like my sister couldn't have children and I like envied her and I thought about how great it would be to have all this time for yourself or not deal with the children that's triggering you all the time. But that all changed by changing my mindset and getting help and getting
advice from people on how to approach parenting and being informed and working on myself and back to feeling good about my children wanting to spend time with them. So like in the past I would get anxiety before picking them up because I would imagine them throwing tantrums in public or fighting or kicking each other in public. But now I look forward to picking them up and I look forward to spending time with them. And it's because
learned a thing or two about parenting and I did the work to improve myself and to, I think, to take better care of myself. It helps that they went to kindergarten and lockdown was over so I could take better care of myself, but that's also a big part of being a parent is taking care of yourself.
Jamie (19:24.112)
Yeah, very much the case. It's not the first time I've heard that from our guests about, know, you've got to put yourself first in order to put your kids first. And if you don't have the right mindset, they don't have the right mental health, physical health and all the rest of it, it becomes harder to parent. So for someone like me who, you know, might be triggered or start to, you know, get angry and escalate and where my typical is to, you
perhaps raise my voice, share some tips for parents that might help them remain calm and composed during challenging parenting moments.
Sue Meintjes (20:01.451)
I'm so glad you asked that question. Actually, I wrote an ebook on how to stay calm as a parent and I released it this week. I there's many tools and techniques and that ebook to one of the things is to become more aware of how you are feeling and to find the space to notice where you are going and
We call it to improve your calm ability. So there are lots of things that you can do in a moment, daily things to improve your ability to stay calm, your calm ability. And then there are things you can do in the moment to stay calm. And there are things to do after you've lost your cool, what to do next time to be a calm parent. But one of the things that you will learn if you work in your ability to stay calm is to see yourself as a thermometer.
like the thing that measures temperature. And you've got like very hot on top and if you've got cool on the bottom, like blue. So the trick and what you must learn is how do you feel when you lose it? How do you feel when you are calm and then write it down and then notice where you are in your moment there And then you can also let your child know that...
Sue Meintjes (21:25.75)
getting triggered, I'm getting upset, I need to breathe out, I need to leave the room and do something to calm you down.
And there's also the ALL technique is to acknowledge what you are feeling and to link it and to let it go. And then there's also something I've learned in my parenting course is the anchor technique. But I'm sort of always to, one of the first things is to become aware of how you are feeling your body. It's like, how do you feel when you
on the verge of yelling, how do you feel when you are on the verge of threatening and punishing? It's like, you feel your heart pounding or do you feel your jaw clenched? And to notice that, and it's not always easy to notice it, but if you work on your ability to stay calm and you do like normal things like getting enough sleep if it's possible or taking naps if you can't and.
following a good diet and exercise and all those things and deep breathing all those things improve your ability to stay calm and to notice how you are feeling and also meditation is also helpful. So you gain awareness of how you are feeling your body and then you name the feeling you say hello pounding heart hello tight jaw and then you connect to your calming tool whatever calms you down.
And we've got a principle of this in my ebook that I've written. So you can print it out and put it up. It's still a new concept for me. still I'm busy learning it and learning to apply it. So one trigger Dr. Larikone has taught me is to use an ice pack. I keep like an ice pack in the freezer. And when I get triggered, I go to the freezer and I put the ice pack on
Sue Meintjes (23:24.42)
forehead and that's called next to your forehead, it's like an instant calming down tool. It lowers your heart rate, it lowers your breathing and it's also something if your children are up for it that you can give your children to put on their foreheads if they get angry and that really is something I go to the freezer when I get angry. So then you have gained awareness of your body, how you are feeling or that
starting to get angry, you're starting to get triggered. You name the feeding, you say, hello, hello, anger, hello, tight chest. You connect to your calming tool. I go to the fridge, you can maybe, I go to the freezer, you can do whatever you do normally to calm down, as long as you gain awareness and to calm down. And it's also important where the age comes in for the anchor is to
honor the process to say to your child, I'm feeling upset. I need five minutes or so just to calm down. I will be in the next room. I'm just going to the bathroom to take a few breaths. And then when I'm done, I will be with you. And I try to use this the day, but I forgot to tell my child what I'm doing and that I need a break. And then the O of the anchor is to open to connection.
Connect to yourself by saying, I am safe. This is not the end of the world. I can recognize my emotions. And then you reconnect the art of anger. You reconnect with your child. If you have come down yourself, hopefully it doesn't take too long. And then you reconnect with your child by saying, I'm back, I'm here. So you can use that long process or you can use just a shorter one, the ALL.
by acknowledging, linking and let go, whatever works for you. But it's important to work on your ability to stay calm, to help yourself in the moment, to regain calm once you've lost it, and to work on yourself afterwards, to write about it, to journal about it, to use a trigger tracker and all that things. So that is basically the three steps
Sue Meintjes (25:46.2)
becoming a more calm parent that I've written about.
Jamie (25:49.36)
That's great. There are some good techniques in there. Thank you for sharing those. I wish they were around when my parents were parenting, when they went into the kitchen, they usually went and grabbed the wooden spoon instead of the ice pack. But that's a good technique and something that's new to me. So I'll learn from that and try and incorporate that. Let's talk about calming kids down. There was a technique in the book I read about the rose and candle breathing technique. It's a nice, simple technique, but it can help kids calm down when they're
struggling to do that. Tell our listeners a bit about how they can, parents can maybe use that to help their kids become calm
Sue Meintjes (26:29.314)
It all depends whether it's something that your children like or whether your child's rider likes it to be more humorous or whether they like it to be calm like if there is enough McAlpine just sit, you make your child or you tell them I've got a rose in my one hand and a candle in my other hand and take a deep breath of the rose. They breathe in and then blow out the candle.
Like my husband changed it a little bit. He made it funny. I can't exactly remember how, but I think he's got something stinky to smell and then something to blow away or a bomb or something. But he adjusted it so it's more humorous and the children enjoy the fun and games. So can play around with little things of helping your child's ways to cool down and to calm down, whatever. It's all individual and
what works for one child, what doesn't work for another child, whatever you can do to help your child.
Jamie (27:31.514)
Yeah, humor is important and I'm a big fan of humor in parenting. Julie King in your book talks about making inanimate objects talk to engage children. So what's all that about?
Sue Meintjes (27:46.926)
That is a very easy way of using playfulness and playfulness is really great for getting children to listen because it helps the parents. It helps the parents in order to not lose your cool or to be strict or to be giving orders all the time because children get very resistant when you give orders. They don't like to be told what to do, but like I don't think anybody likes to be told what to do.
It's like if your partner comes home and tell you, hang up your coat, take off your shoes, make dinner. Then I tell you to look at your phone, don't do that, do that. You will also not want to do what I say and that's where humor comes in. So one of the techniques that Julie King shared was to make something talk. So you can, if your child doesn't want to brush their teeth, you take the toothbrush and you make the toothbrush talks. Hello.
please brush your teeth, please, please. Or you can say, I don't want to brush your teeth. Whatever works for your child, does it help to bleed or does it help not to? And then your child will say, but you must brush my teeth. But my husband actually, he make like a tooth versus brush battle where the tooth doesn't want to be brushed, but the brush wants to brush. And there's like a battle between them. And he made it fun like that as well.
I really like humor, but it's not always easy to use humor because when you get triggered or you feel angry or stressed or in a moment it's difficult to use humor, but it's very effective.
Jamie (29:25.37)
Yeah, wonderful. And I think the key underlying all this is about modeling great behavior, know, modeling what it is that you want your child to become and how you want them to grow and develop. And I think it's the undercurrent or the thing that underpins all of these strategies. We're coming to that part in the show where it's almost time to wrap up. But I want to ask a question that we ask all of our guests, Sue. It's a very important question, very serious question. And that is
If you had a time machine and you can go back to your say 12 year old younger self, what would Sue say to your younger Sue, younger version of yourself? What's one piece of advice that you give yourself?
Sue Meintjes (30:08.186)
I recently started writing, journaling about my experience with my children. And I don't have many memories about my childhood or about my mom. She passed away this year. It will be 10 years that she's passed away. And she's always wanted to have grandchildren and she never got the opportunity to have them. So I would encourage little 12 year old Sue to start.
keeping journals to journal about her experiences and how her mom was and what type of parent she was and just to capture those memories because when we were back in South Africa, my mom was dying in the hospital and everything. I found when we were clearing out her house, I found a letter that she wrote to me when I had my first birthday and all the things she did for me, like she spent six weeks on my cake making a
gingerbread house, like with the whole story scene and she made a beautiful blue dress for me that made my eyes pop out and just like having that letter and reading it improved my memory and improved my appreciation of her and the bond that I had with her. recently this year I started every evening I go to my room and I write a write down something.
good that happened the day with my children or something I want to remember, I want them to remember. So I started journaling and keeping memories and keeping the records of the things that they did or that I did with regards to them that brought me joy. So I'm that someday when I'm not here, they find all my journals and they have all these lovely memories of me and their childhood. Like last night, the other day at
supermarket my son was really interested in this big piece of whole fish he wanted to buy the fish it's like a whole dead fish and i thought he wanted to eat it but so i didn't want to buy him the whole fish because i wasn't sure how to cook it it was like very difficult and would it be full of bones and stuff but yesterday i went i bought him the whole fish and he was so delighted like
Sue Meintjes (32:25.55)
played with the dead fish in the kitchen like picking up its fins and opening a mouth and looking at the teeth and just exploring the fish for about half an hour just like this experience of the fish and he's a very nature -loving boy so I hope that is something he will remember but if he doesn't I just write it down
Jamie (32:46.492)
It's in the journal. That's a wonderful reflection. I ask every guest on the show, and I think we're coming up to 100 guests, and I've not heard that. A lot of there's common threads in what I ask, what advice they'd give themselves if they could go back. And that's a lovely one, and a really important one to keep a record of life and to...
to hold those memories. So thank you for sharing that. So where can our listeners get a hold of you and get a hold of your book? Tell our listeners where they can do that. Because it's a great book, by the way, lots of experts have contributed to create this parenting book and it's a very great resource for those that are interested.
Sue Meintjes (33:19.396)
That's
Sue Meintjes (33:28.538)
Yeah, I'm really grateful for everyone that contributes. think maybe I kept the interview still 10 minutes at a time. So the interview was only 10 minutes long and that was easy to agree to a 10 minute interview. So it's also easy to listen and to read. You can read the 10 minute interview very quickly. But the ebook is available at www .expertparentingadvice
forward slash listen. So expert parenting advice .com forward slash listen. And I can get it for free downloads. And we also have a daily newsletter where my, we, write about all lessons that we've learned from using the book. And it has been two years now that I've done this, I've been doing, I did a book two years ago. So I've been living and benefiting from that advice for the last two years.
writing about it every day and growing from it. And there's also a place where we give special offers to our new products that I wrote, like our calming down toolkit that we've released this week. So it's also available at a discount for a new set of subscribers.
Jamie (34:47.216)
Wonderful, we'll put all those in the show notes. Sue, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your journey with us. There's some wonderful tips and tools and techniques and ideas in there that I know parents and listeners can take away. So thanks for your generosity and time today. And we hope to see you again down the track. Cheers. Bye for now.
Sue Meintjes (35:06.02)
Thank you. Bye.

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This episode is sponsored by Skill Samurai - Coding & STEM Academy www.skillsamurai.com.au.