It's Okay Not to Know - SE4EP10 - Brenda Do
Today, we have the pleasure of speaking with Brenda Do, a seasoned copywriter and now a children's book author who has channelled her childhood experiences into her debut book, "It’s Okay Not to Know." Growing up as a Chinese girl in 1970s America, Brenda felt the sting of exclusion in a world where none of the books she encountered reflected her own identity.
This formative experience fuelled her passion for creating inclusive stories that resonate with all children, regardless of their background. Her book is a delightful and thoughtful exploration of social-emotional learning themes, designed to empower young readers to embrace uncertainty and find confidence in themselves.
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AI-generated transcript
Introduction:
Jamie (00:00.876)
Hey parents and welcome to another episode of Parenting in the Digital Age. Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Brenda Do, a seasoned copywriter and now children's book author who has channeled her childhood experiences into her debut book called It's Okay Not to Know. Growing up as a Chinese girl in 1970s America, Brenda felt the sting of exclusion in a world where none of the books she encountered reflected her own identity. This formative experience fueled her passion for creating inclusive stories that resonate with all children regardless of their background. Her book is a delightful and thoughtful exploration of social emotional learning themes designed to empower young readers to embrace their uncertainty and find confidence in themselves.
Interview:
Jamie (00:00.952)
Brenda, welcome to the show. Please start by sharing with our listeners a little bit about what you do and what you're passionate about.
Brenda Do (00:07.564)
I by trade. am a professional copywriter. So I write sales and marketing material for companies, usually a lot of tech. So I spend most of my time trying to figure out what makes people tick, what makes them think the way they do act the way they do, because my job is to guide their thought process to make a sale for companies. And so I'm passionate about basically the psychology of things, you know, why people
behave the way they do, like I said earlier. And then so what I decided to do is I authored a children's book that I know you're thinking, hey, how do you go from corporate sales to children's book? And it does sound kind of dark, I get it. But it's not. But I was trying to figure out when I see kids who have low self esteem, or who find that they're having challenges, and they can't figure out how to overcome them. So they get really hard on themselves because they're
basically comparing themselves to others, thinking they're not enough, right? And when I hear that kind of messages and I see that in kids, it makes me sad. So I figure, how can I use that copywriting brain that I have to help kids overcome challenges so that they have the social emotional learning skills to get through and believe in themselves. And that way they can keep taking risks as they get older and start challenging themselves some more and feel confident enough to what we call fail.
know, because I think failing is a great thing, not a bad thing at all. And we're trying, I'm trying to help kids understand it's just about, let's just play. Let's just have that, you know, that time of taking a risk, seeing where it goes, learning from it, and then moving forward and keep doing it bigger and bigger and bigger as you keep getting older.
Jamie (01:54.606)
Yeah, that's wonderful. Wonderful mission and purpose. I love this notion of encouraging kids to fail and making failure okay. It's how we learn. so maybe share about for our listeners a bit about the inspiration behind your book. The book's called, It's Okay Not To Know. So maybe where did it come from and maybe share a bit about your childhood experiences that might've shaped this project.
Brenda Do (02:19.138)
Yeah, so how the book came about was I was visiting my little nephew and he was like eight years old at the time and I was staying at his parents house. We were cleaning up after dinner and he was helping out. So he was putting, you know, food away into a little container and then putting the lid on it and he didn't have the lid on tightly enough so that when he was walking to the refrigerator he accidentally dropped it. Food
all splattered all over the floor, the cabins, the walls. It was a hot mess. But the sad part was his first reaction was to go, man, I'm so stupid. And my heart was like, why did he have that kind of harsh reaction? He instantly judged himself and it made it feel like it felt as if it confirmed how he really felt about himself. It's like another, look, there's another example of how I'm not enough, right?
And so me being the copywriter, I'm always going, hmm, what happened there? Because it's not like his parents are that kind of parents where he would feel that way. You know, they're very supportive and loving. And then so I started to analyze it. It came into learning about the growth versus fixed mindset. And I don't know if you're familiar with Carol Dweck's work with the growth mindset with children. She's a psychiatrist.
psychologist over at Stanford University. And she's done a lot of work with that. And I think she's the one who coined the term. I could be wrong, but I think she was. And then so when I learned about the grow versus fixed mindset, and then also the whole not enoughness, I started thinking, wait a minute, if kids start feeling that way, what caused them to feel that way? Because a lot of well -meaning adults think that they're helping, but why are they still ending up judging themselves? And then I started to think about how when you
At least in the US we grade papers by A B C and D A being the best, you know D being a failure and then so usually what happens is the parents put the A paper on the refrigerator Not the C because they're rewarding the the result and not the effort So the kid starts to get this message subconsciously. It's like unless I do really really well, I'm not gonna be lovable enough
Brenda Do (04:39.832)
And that's kind of where it starts to go. It's kind of a slippery slope. And then so when you start saying, hey, you know, I love how you got an A, you're so smart. And then so the kid starts to think, yeah, OK, well, my identity is I got to be smart. So then if I start finding a challenge that isn't something that I can handle because it seems like it's not going to I'm going to not going to do so well in it, they start to pull back.
because if they don't pull back, then they're gonna say, well, if I try and I fail, then I'm not so smart. So then again, I'm not enough. And so it's those kinds of messages that the kids end up getting unintentionally from adults, right? That I'm just trying to figure out, okay, how can I help them overcome that? And then as adults, you see it because a lot of times, and I used to be this person, I'm still a work in progress, so I have to catch myself.
And it's when someone says to you, you you're trying to explain something to someone, they think you're telling them that they're wrong. You're trying to correct a situation. And then they instantly get all defensive because they end up being, you can't tell me what to do. I already knew that. Well, duh, duh, duh, duh. And they just shut you off. Right. That's how a lot of adults are. And if you think back a lot of times, it's because they're feeling like, you're shaming me.
you're telling me I'm not enough. it goes back to that wounding as a child on a subconscious level. And then so I kept thinking, well, how can we raise open adults who are going to, know, kids who are going to grow up to be adults who are going to live their biggest, most expansive life. And the only way to do that is to know how to overcome challenges when you're really, really young. So it becomes part of your mindset to just go, I'm just going to try anything.
I'm going to see where it goes. I'm going to learn from in my mistakes. And I'm just going to keep going forward because I don't have as much of that judgment going on. I have a lot more self love, more self compassion. And when you have more self love and compassion towards yourself, you're going to be able to be more compassionate towards others. And that's why there's a scene in the book where the protagonist Bink, you know, they're sharing love with another
Brenda Do (06:54.734)
another creature who's having a hard time. And that's how I feel that we can all uplift the world together. Because it's really a story about love.
Jamie (07:04.59)
Well, that's so impactful there, Brenda, and a lot to unpack. But one of the things that stood out to me in that part of your narrative is about effort versus results. And I'm involved in Skill Samurai. This is not a plug. I don't want this to be a plug. part of what drew me into this education space is this was a brand that prioritized efforts rather than results and rewarded efforts.
and behaviors and values first, rather than there are no report cards in our classrooms. And parents struggle to get their head around why that is. And why can't I see what my child is doing? Well, you can come in and sit with us. Well, you're allowed to come in sit down with us any time we'll walk you through their project and their progress. But every kid works on their own project at their own pace, and they're not compared to one another. Some of the most brilliant minds in the world are C students, they're not A students. But you know, how different
How different would the world be if all of education prioritized values and behaviors and effort instead of standardized testing standardized testing, you know, kills creativity in my mind. So it's a challenge for us all. I'm glad you've taken up the baton and are working towards this change. But you talk about this like you're interweaving some pretty complex social emotional concepts in a kid's book.
Brenda Do (08:08.878)
Mm
Brenda Do (08:14.035)
I agree. Yeah.
Jamie (08:29.371)
Were there any challenges? How do you make these concepts accessible to kids?
Brenda Do (08:33.5)
you know, me being the copywriter, it's my job is to distill complex messages and make it easy to understand. So because this was such a passion project, too, because I kept thinking about my nephew and the pain that he was going through. And you asked earlier how you know what the my background might be involved in this. So, you know, for anyone listening, you can't see me, but you might judge from my last name. I am Chinese descent.
and my parents were immigrants and we live in the US. so English is my second language. And growing up, there were no other kids that looked like me, right? And they, and or acted like me or thought the same way because of my background. And then, so I kept thinking, it's like I was being judged the entire time, my whole family, because we were the only minority in the whole area. And so I always felt like I wasn't enough.
because I didn't look and act like everyone else. And then growing up Chinese, I came from a very traditional family. And so the tradition was pretty much, was a lot of rigidity where you can't make a mistake. You're supposed to come out of the womb being an A student, you know? And that's the baseline and then you go up from there, you know? So there was always this pressure to prove yourself and everything else. And so as an adult,
that really messes with you and how you show up in the world, your relationships at work and also personally. And I saw my nephew start judging himself and I was thinking, I don't want him to have that life because I know what it looks like and I know what it takes to get around it and move through it and grow from it. And I was like, I'd love for it to be a lot easier for them. And then so as a copywriter, I kept thinking, how can I make this easy? So the passion, it just came through. It came through my book and then
When I wrote it, I thought afterwards, it's kind of like Brene Brown meets Dr. Seuss. So it is very easy concept and it's something that almost everybody has heard before. I'm just saying it differently. So hopefully it syncs in for the right people when they're ready.
Jamie (10:47.756)
Love that. Brené Brown, crossed with Dr. Zeus. That's very clear and articulate way of putting it. And it's an amazing book with some amazing praise. I'm looking at some of the testimonials from teachers and parents and therapists. This is a, can I use the word groundbreaking? Like this is an important book for parents and kids. you talk, when doing the pre -show prep, looking at your podcast, your website.
Brenda Do (10:51.482)
Hahaha
Jamie (11:15.643)
You mentioned about creating characters that are untethered from race or gender or socioeconomic status or even physical abilities. Why is this important?
Brenda Do (11:27.044)
thank you. It's important because I knew how it felt to be excluded. And when I was growing up, so I'm in my 50s. So I grew up in the US in the 70s, where there were no books in the libraries that had kids in there that looked like me. So I remember how that made me feel I felt excluded. And so I wanted to make sure that all kids no matter what their background, no matter what their home life looks like, no matter how they feel about themselves.
can relate to the characters in this book because that way they can focus on the message and not what it looks like. And then so that's why Bink, the main character also does not have a gender. I refer to the creature as they. And my brilliant illustrator, know, Casey Fritz, he created this whole magical world, you know, so that way when I write more books,
Bink and their buddies are going to be in this magical world and we're going to see a lot more of them. I also came up with the name Bink because as far as I know, it is a sound that I think most people who speak can make that sound no matter what language they come from as well. So yeah.
Jamie (12:39.598)
Incredible, incredible. And the book is beautiful. Like it's beautiful to look at. And I was gonna ask you about the process of illustration. This is not so much a parenting topic, just more for my own interest. And hopefully our listeners may be interested, but how do you take the words and then collaborate with an obviously talented illustrator like this to end up with the end product that you have?
Brenda Do (13:04.544)
Yeah, actually, being a copywriter, I'm so used to working with designers all the time that I can just speak each other's language being in the creative field. But with Casey, I was very fortunate. My publicist publisher, they're the ones who introduced me to Casey and thought, he's going to be a great fit for you. What's funny is Casey actually specializes in horror. So again, completely opposite of children's stuff.
I was looking at his portfolio and I was thinking to myself, well, the way he colors in that severed head, it's kind of cool. So maybe he's got something and he can make this fictitious world for me. And the fun part was he jumped right in and he was so excited. He does such a beautiful job and he's very cerebral with his illustrative style was specifically for the book. I especially like the cover because Bink
It's kind of, I'm having a mind block on the word, but he's sort of a, Henri, not Henri, huh, I'm forgetting the word all of a sudden, rebellious. He's a little bit rebellious because they're graffitiing, but in a happy way, he's got a little paint on their paws and everything else to show that they did it. So I love that part. And then so working with the illustrator, all I did is I just went, okay, well, let's first talk.
to see if they get the message, right? If the illustrator gets the message, then perhaps we can work together. Because having talent is one thing, but the heart needs to be in it and the mind needs to be in it too. And the first time we sat and talked, well, over video, the first time we chatted, he instantly fell in love with the book and told me.
this is what I'm getting out of it. This is the big message that I really see. Here's where I think the peak is, and he was so excited and I thought, okay, the guy gets it. Let's just go ahead and see what world we can make together. So that was basically the process. It has to be the heart first for me for everything.
Jamie (15:10.081)
And for those listening who may not be able to see the book, what age group is it pitched at?
Brenda Do (15:17.098)
It's a picture book, so it's usually two to seven.
Jamie (15:21.196)
Okay, so for parents, caregivers, educators wanting to use this book to support their children in development of social, emotional development or, you know, helping kids understand that they are enough, you know, building these positive behaviors and thought patterns. How do you hope they can use this book? Or is there a guide to be using this book or, you know, what's your advice to parents on using a book like this?
Brenda Do (15:48.176)
My advice is to read it and ask questions as you're looking at the pictures, because it's a picture book, very few words. I think there are only like 210 words total in the book. And what I've heard from the feedback from parents and also any and also teachers is that it's great for just sitting down with the child in the book and then just go, what's Bink doing here? look, Bink couldn't catch the book, you the ball.
What does that make you? How do you think think is feeling, you know, and you keep asking those questions and then go, have you had a situation where you felt like that, where you couldn't do something and you thought you should, you know? And so it's just an easy way of just opening up that conversation. So that way the kids don't feel blamed. They don't feel like they put on the spot instead. They're relating to the character and they know that they're not the only ones. Yeah. It's, it's been fun. my, think my, out of all of the accolades that I received,
Jamie (16:38.626)
Yeah.
Brenda Do (16:45.936)
my favorite and to me the most authentic is when a child just grabs the book and goes read this to me because and they've read it like 15 times they don't care they just go read it to me again because that's the one they keep gravitating towards because I think kids get it they come into this world they know they're powerful and unfortunately we adults kind of kind of teach it out of them and so now this is their way of being reminded they are powerful.
and they do have the tools and they do have the ability to be anything they want to be.
Jamie (17:18.168)
Well said, well said. A bit of a pivot. How do you see the digital age and AI impacting children's books?
Brenda Do (17:27.804)
that's a good one. Cause since I'm in the writing field and I have to deal with AI all the time, I think they're great for ideation. If it's used properly, AI is wonderful for, let's say you're trying to figure out, Ooh, how can I take this one paragraph and simplify it for, let's say a four year old, four year old with this specific background in this specific country, for example, you can really narrow it down. If you teach the language model.
And then, you know, and then also you as I'm designers, illustrators, they can do the same for authors who don't want to pay to work with an illustrator because it can be expensive, right? And they want to do their own illustrations. They can maybe feed some of their illustrations into AI or the they can feed the idea of what they want. And then they can at least get some rough drafts put that way and then maybe have a professional illustrator just clean it up a little bit.
since AI tends to mess things up a little when it comes to graphics. then so I see AI, if used properly, can be a great launching pad tool, but they're not the end all be all because it can't think, only humans can think, only humans can feel. And your own intuition, your own feelings and everything else come into play and that's what makes a book sing.
Jamie (18:54.434)
Yeah, well said. Nicely put. So this is the first book, right? So tell us what's next.
Brenda Do (19:01.189)
That's right.
You know, I'm not quite sure. I figured it'll come to me when it comes to me. My focus right now is to my actual goal. And I like to think big is to uplift a hundred million kids. So whether that's they read it in the library, they see a cartoon series with Bink and their friends, whatever it is, if I could be the next Bluey.
be very happy. I'm putting it out there. So I mean, it's just, I don't know how it's going to happen, but I figure it's going to. And it's going to happen in a big, beautiful way. So I figure I'll start with with this first book. And then when the next one's ready to come along, I'll go ahead and write another
Jamie (19:29.708)
Hahaha.
Jamie (19:34.392)
Thanks.
Jamie (19:48.386)
Yeah, that's good. I wish you all the success in the world. It's a wonderfully beautiful book with a powerful message that's constructed in a way that is relatable to kids. And so I think you've absolutely nailed it. Before we wrap up, and again, we can go on forever, but one question that I love to ask all of our guests on the podcast is if we had a time machine and Brenda,
carry Brenda could go back and revisit your 12 year old younger self. What's one piece of advice that you'd share with your younger self?
Brenda Do (20:28.566)
It would be what makes you different is what makes you awesome. And to know that and to embrace it. And as an adult, to keep remembering that too. Especially in an age of social media where everyone is trying so hard to be different by looking the same and acting the same and loving the same things. As I know, we're all here with our own special unique ways and not to be embarrassed by that or shamed by that.
that to embrace it and love yourself for it and love others' uniqueness as well.
Jamie (21:02.466)
Yeah, and books like this will help to fuel that notion. Brenda, where can people find your book and find you?
Brenda Do (21:10.456)
They can find me at brendado .com and then you can order the book through there or you can just go to your nearest bookstore and ask them to order it for you as well. It's in their database. So and you can follow me on social through all my handles are also on my website.
Jamie (21:27.34)
Fantastic, Brenda. Thanks for your time and generosity today. You're on an important mission that I believe strongly in. It's OK Not To Know is the title of the book. And if you've got young children and you want to help them and enable them on the path to self -development and knowing that they are enough, get out and find this book. Brenda, thanks for your time and I look forward. I hope we reconnect again soon.
Brenda Do (21:48.358)
yes, thank you so much.
Jamie (21:50.35)
Cheers, bye for now.
Brenda Do (21:51.92)
All right, bye.