Raising Tech-Healthy Kids: Balancing Screens and Real Life - SE4EP11- Daniel Sih

In this episode, our guest is Daniel Sih, an award-winning author, productivity consultant, and TEDx speaker. Daniel is the founder of Spacemakers and the author of 'Raising Tech-Healthy Humans,' a guidebook that helps parents reset their children's tech habits. He’s here to share his insights on how to manage technology wisely, create meaningful connections, and raise well-balanced children in a digital world.

https://raisinghumans.au/

https://www.youtube.com/@daniel_sih

Sponsored by Skill Samurai - Coding, Maths and STEM Academy | | www.skillsamurai.com.au

AI-generated transcript

Introduction:

Jamie (00:01.144)

Hello parents and welcome to another episode of Parenting in a Digital Age. Today we have a killer episode lined up and our special guest is Daniel Sih. Daniel is an award -winning author, productivity consultant, a ninja and a TEDx speaker. Daniel is the founder of Space Makers, the author of Raising Tech Healthy Humans, a guidebook that helps parents reset their children's tech habits. He's here to share his insights on how to manage technology wisely, create meaningful connections with our kids.

and raise well -balanced children in a digital world.

Interview:

Jamie (00:01.336)

Daniel, welcome to the show. Please start by sharing with our listeners a bit about what you do and what you're passionate about.

Daniel Sih (00:07.342)

Great. Well, like I help people make space, which sounds somewhat unusual, but I love helping busy people, parents, workers, professionals, think deeply about how they live, how they work and make space. So by that, mean to think, to rest, to plan, to breathe and just live an intentional life. And I love that.

Jamie (00:32.14)

And certainly in this digital age, space is becoming rarer and rarer, I would imagine, right?

Daniel Sih (00:36.742)

Yeah, absolutely. We are busier than ever before. We're in a culture where there's more and more and more. And when I speak to people, people aren't saying to me they want more information, they want even more opportunities. They're saying they want to be able to slow down and be still and have meaningful relationships and maybe just not rush from place to place to, yeah, to have space. It's a very rare and important commodity. if we don't...

shape our habits and practices intentionally, we may not have space in our lives to live our own life, to live the life we're meant to live. So yeah, I agree.

Jamie (01:15.372)

Yeah, yeah, intentionally is the important word there. We're going to talk about kids and tech and healthy brains and development, all that cool stuff on today's podcast. Let's start with an easy one. In terms of technology, a lot of the young parents I come into contact with ask simple questions like, you know, what is a good age to introduce my kid to tech? Is there a good age? Is there is there an age that is too early to introduce my kids to tech? What do you views? What do you views on that?

Daniel Sih (01:40.654)

Hmm. look, that's a very broad question. You almost need a whole book because I think one of the things that we need to understand is that, mean, tech is an important part of our kids' lives. It's a, it's a, it's going to be tremendously important that our kids engage with tech in a healthy way. and yet it's so different at different stages of a child's development and their brain development. So yes, I would suggest like the government's research and recommendations that

basically no tech from zero to two is a good recommendation. There are very few benefits of allowing babies to use technology. And I actually think giving them the access to swipe your screen and saying how smart are they, how cute it is, my two year old can actually use an iPhone. As cute as it looks, actually kind of shapes the path where the phone becomes a child tool. And actually the phone is a powerful supercomputer that is really designed for adults in the adult world. So I do think

at a very young age, you you want to slow down, but then obviously you'd want to make different decisions, let's say, with younger kids and primary school kids and grade them up into more technology use, greater technology use. It's a large question. I'd be happy to talk about different age groups and their mental development, but it is actually a stage by stage thing, just like any parenting, right?

Jamie (02:51.096)

Yeah.

Jamie (03:00.078)

Yeah, you did right. Okay, so I've got a friend, 10 year old son, asking for a mobile phone. They're sort of saying, no, not getting a mobile phone. What's the view on that? And I get there's no right answer here. It's just kind of...

Daniel Sih (03:13.926)

actually, I used to say there was no right answer for years. I said there was no right answer. And actually, I've changed my mind. So so now I would say so well, I'd say there's a wrong answer. And the wrong answer is 10 years old. So I do think that I align now with Jonathan Hayes research, because it's the best research I've seen, I'm sure I'm assuming you've read anxious generations, and Jane Twenge's research. So he would suggest that 14 or, you know, high school in the States, which is about 14 years old.

Jamie (03:20.086)

Okay.

Daniel Sih (03:43.558)

is probably the earliest you want to give your child a mobile phone, potentially 13. And then when you give them a mobile phone, then there needs to be healthy boundaries and restrictions, for example, parental controls and parental filters, and then to grade up as they grow up. So it's not that they can't access technology or the internet, it's not that they're not coding and they're not doing touch typing and learning skills at a younger age.

But once you give them a mobile phone, they really do have open access to the adult world. And generally kids then dive very quickly into social media and highly addictive tools that are bad for their mental health and development, particularly girls. So yeah, I would say try to wait until, well, it used to be wait until eight, but I actually think 13 is a little young. I think if you can wait until 14, or if our culture can, that would be ideal. The one point on that is there's no judgment in that space because

Most kids get their phones well before 14. It's very hard as a parent in a culture where everyone is doing something else to slow down. So I'm not saying that age as a way of saying this is easy or even that you have to, but I think if as a culture we slowed down and said no phones until 14, no social media until 16, we would absolutely see kids mental health improve, their learning improve and their outcomes in life improve.

Jamie (05:07.244)

Yeah, well said, Daniel, well said. So maybe we'll go back to slightly younger kids for a minute. What types of media or technology can be beneficial for younger kids? So when you do choose to introduce tech, what's your view on that?

Daniel Sih (05:18.852)

Hmm, beneficial,

Daniel Sih (05:24.524)

Yeah, look, absolutely. I think, I think it's the principles are that you want to make sure your kids aren't using pokey machine technologies. I think it's that's part of the principle, because it's very hard. think some ed tech is based on highly addictive behavioral conditioning technologies, you know, like, no, I won't, I won't give examples. But but others are doing some great work. So I suppose what I tell parents is

Jamie (05:46.188)

Yeah.

Daniel Sih (05:52.696)

If you have younger kids, so let's say primary school age kids, the research indicates that using interactive, let's say iPads and phones tends to ramp up the lower part of their brain, the flight, flight freeze part of the brain, the anxiety parts of their brain, if, if you're using particular apps. if it, if there's lots and lots of crazy flashing colors and lights, like a pokey machine, if you have random variable rewards. like in Minecraft, you have to dig for

for diamonds and the more you dig, the more you get and they're random, it's like a pokey machine reward system. Or if you have streaks, so you have to engage in the technology. And if you don't engage, you'll actually lose something that they're all very, very much built on dopamine based addictive pathways. And so even if they're teaching you something educational, you're using an addictive form of conditioning, which ultimately will shape a child's worldview more than the content itself.

So what I say to parents is if it looks like a pokey machine, if it acts like a pokey machine, it is a pokey machine and it's bad for your kid's development and their brain. Even if they're trying to teach you maths. What I've loved is I've loved the coding programs. You know, I've loved Scratch. I've loved other things my kids have used. I've loved some of the typing tutor programs when they were young. I found reading eggs super helpful for improving the numeracy and literacy skills.

Some maths programs were really, really useful. but I've steered, I've steered clear from Duolingo and things like that because they are, they are foundationally and fundamentally built on an addictive behavioral conditioning pathway. While it might teach you words, it's also training your brain to require TikTok type stimulation. And I just think that's not a good way to train your brain when you're

Jamie (07:41.134)

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting view and makes a lot of sense. You know, one of the things that we love, particularly in, you know, sort of early stage kids, age three, four, five, is unplugged screen free tech, things like, you know, junior robotics, there's some great products out there. Tailwatt Pros are an example, VEX 1, 2, 3, you know, just with simple buttons and, you know, helping kids build problem solving, cognitive thinking, creative thinking, all sorts of cool things. So there is a...

So some great examples of healthy tech introduced at the right time.

Daniel Sih (08:12.826)

Hmm. Yeah, no, that makes absolute sense. That makes a lot of sense. And again, the goal is to try to help our kids prepare for an AI economy, and to be at the front end of it, not necessarily the consumer end of it. But I just think parents haven't quite worked out the difference between helping prepare our kids for a tech economy versus training them to have fractured attention and concentration.

Jamie (08:42.787)

Yeah.

Daniel Sih (08:43.356)

And it's a really hard mix for parents to make those choices because there's so many different messages out there.

Jamie (08:49.99)

It's hard, as parents, we don't have all the knowledge. We don't necessarily understand ourselves what the tech economy will look like. So how can we be informed enough to guide our kids appropriately?

Daniel Sih (09:00.538)

Yeah. But, what we can do, I think, is we can, we can guarantee that kids who have the ability to, let's say, read and think critically, to focus on a particular problem and to continue with deep concentrated work for more than an hour at a time. People who can sustain their attention without needing constant dopamine addiction and distraction, and who can maintain healthy relationships and have conversations with eye contact.

they're the skills that will actually definitely train your kids to be healthy as their adults, no matter what the technologies look like. Whereas if your kids can't watch a movie because they don't have the focus or attention to watch a whole movie, if they're spending like, if they really can't have any times of silence and solitude, experience boredom or creativity without pulling out a device and if

If a device is the only way they can entertain themselves, well, then you're not preparing them for a digital economy because their brains won't have the functioning to be able to be great learners. So this is the tension and the balance, I think, with parenting and technology. Have you seen the same thing, Jamie? I mean, I'm really interested in your perspectives. It might be different.

Jamie (10:15.566)

No, no, no. think we're 100 % aligned there. Look, I know there are going to be parents listening who have maybe introduced their kids to technology a little early and their kids or their feeling that their kids are digitally consumed. Can we reset? is there a strategy? Is there a way that I've got a 15 year old son, for example, that's literally glued to his phone? I don't have my son's 20, but as an example.

Daniel Sih (10:41.648)

Mmm.

Jamie (10:44.942)

Is it too late for parents or can we, is there a way that we can help our kids reset and help ourselves reset?

Daniel Sih (10:52.614)

Yeah, look, I think it's never too late. I definitely would say that. But again, I would suggest the age is different. So if you have a 15, 16 year old, let's say son who is playing five hours of Fortnite and other games a day, and you really can't engage with them, you are possibly looking at more addiction type management. And I'm not an expert in that space. So that's a different type of question. You can go back, but it's hard. Whereas if you're talking about a primary school kid,

You know, who is just watching a bit too much kind of screen time and they're getting bored. They're not going outside and riding bikes. And you think actually I'm just uncomfortable and they have tantrums. If you take their iPad away, well, then absolutely you can reset. It's a lot easier. Does that make sense? So it does depend on where they're at, but the principles I think are to say, so the principles I always go back to our raise adults, not kids, meaning

what are the types of adults you're trying to raise? We're not trying to raise kids, we're trying to raise kids who become loving, healthy, robust, wholehearted adults. And so when we're making decisions about how they use their time, or whether they're eating vegetables or whether they're sleeping, we're making decisions based on what might be the consequences as they grow into adulthood of these types of habits. So think through that longer term lens. The other principle I would say is,

You're not saying no, you're saying no for a greater yes. And so it doesn't work if you're just saying no more Minecraft or no more this, no more that, no more screen time. Full stop. I think we need to be reflecting on where does technology fit within the childhood we want our kids to have in the broader experience of life and the type of family life that we would like, the experiences we think that they will walk, like look back on and think that gave me a great childhood.

And then say no within a context of how can we add some greater yeses. So yeah, practically that might be, okay, so let's say no to Minecraft for this extra hour, but let's play a board game or let's go for a walk or let's actually create an engaging community or actually try to find some other parents whose kids aren't always on screens and let's actually do something together. So it can't just be a no to technology. It has to be a...

Daniel Sih (13:10.712)

A no within healthy boundaries, with relationships. In lieu of a greater yes. And I think there's some broad principles given. This is a short conversation.

Jamie (13:22.082)

Yeah, yeah, no, I totally get that. And, know, I guess a lot of this comes back to getting it right early, modeling the behaviors and the habits that you want your kids to develop. You know, even simple things like in our own home, we have board games out, they're out of the cupboard. Once upon a time, they used to be in the cupboard and away. And now they're out and we grab them, we, you know, have these board games or you see someone walking past in the house when it's a busy house on the weekend, you know, let's get into this.

Daniel Sih (13:51.056)

Hmm. Yeah, your environment matters. That's a really, it's a very important aspect actually of how you're shaping your kids lives.

Jamie (13:52.358)

The parents could...

Jamie (14:00.556)

Yeah, and we almost need to define what that looks like. I'm not sure the words to use there, but just as parents, we need to know what we want our kids to have their adult would look like, or, you know, what does a healthy tech look like? And we almost need to define it, even if even if we have to go to the extent of writing it down, what does healthy tech look like for my kids, so that we're conscious, I think it's a world of conscious and unconscious people at the minute, what certainly headed that way.

Daniel Sih (14:26.598)

I absolutely, 100 % agree. So what I do when I'm speaking with like parents in like a keynote or parenting seminars, I typically have a Slido and I'll ask the question or get people to have conversations if it's a smaller group. We'll ask the question, think about the experiences that made your childhood great. The ones that you look back on and that make you sing, that feel like you're alive, that you think that they were the best experiences of my life.

I've asked my kids the same questions and typically we always hear the same things. You know, I loved it when I ran through the sprinklers with my friends. I loved it when we went bike riding or when we went on that adventure or we had the freedom to go outdoors and we went climbing and my friend hurt themselves, but we got through it or, they're, always relational. They're outdoors, they're adventurous experiences, they're communal, sometimes spiritual. and, and I think what we need to do is remember.

almost have a sense of what is the vision of a healthy whole human life that we want for ourselves and our kids and our communities, and then put technology within that broader vision, and then it works. You don't start with the tech vision, actually. I would say start with the vision of what it looks like to have a community, be wholehearted, to be loving, to be kind, and to experience a sense of generosity. And then where does tech fit into that raising kids?

to those types of experiences. And tech is definitely part of that in our world. And if you shape the path where tech fits in with a broader vision of humanity and adulthood, well, then I think there's a wonderful, rich and beautiful place. But if you make it the gravitational center of all they do, you'll end up in trouble. And that's where our culture is heading right now.

Jamie (16:11.886)

Yeah, yeah, and faster than some of us would care to admit. Well, like, let's talk in a practical sense now for a parent who might be struggling to manage screen time without causing conflict, you know, regardless of the kids, let's say they're sort of, I don't know, maybe five to 10. And we're struggling to get them off a tablet or off the TV. And we're getting conflict at this sort of early age. Any advice for those parents?

Daniel Sih (16:39.236)

Yeah, look, I mean, again, advice, small a advice, because, you know, every child's different, you know, do they have neurodiversity? they have, you know, obviously, I'm giving general advice here. look, one, I would say it's worth firstly recognizing the types of screen time that they have, because we often talk about screen time and the content, we don't talk enough about the context. So there's plenty of research that says, for example, if you spend half an hour, I think if you spend,

If you spend an hour on an iPad, it disrupts sleep for two hours after that. Whereas a passive television screen only disrupts it for one hour after that. there is something about passive old fashioned television screens that are better for the eyes, better for the visual system and better for the brain in terms of they don't ramp up the anxiety centers and the dopamine centers as much. And that's why they're a bit more boring than an iPad, right?

So what I would say is firstly, I'd swap the types of screens that they use where possible and have less interactive kind of Minecraft for Fortnite type stuff and move to more television passive based stuff, which looks like they're not learning, but it actually, what it's doing is it's actually dialing down their dopamine centers and then you can passively watch with them. So it's not necessarily no screen time, but I'd be moving away. I actually suggest that for primary school parents bias television over iPads and then

as they get up, except for like actual ed tech learning. And then you would kind of flip it over. As they get older, you would start to use more mature tools like laptops. So the types of technology is one and the other one is, you know, again, what can you build into their lives in a healthy, robust way that doesn't involve screens and, and build that in slowly. And in my book, I talk about how

how I did that with my children, particularly how I basically forced them to go on bush walks and things that they didn't want to do, but then it became their greatest experiences of the week. So sometimes we have to actually say no for a greater yes, even if our kids don't want it, but not just no.

Jamie (18:45.452)

Yeah. And you're creating those rituals, those family rituals that will hopefully endure generations or becomes a legacy, right? So social media, let's talk about social media. We're talking about tech, let's talk about social media and kids. I'll ask a similar question to what I did at the beginning of the show. Is there an age recommendation? mean, personally, if I could say no to all social media, I would, but...

Daniel Sih (18:55.044)

Hmm, absolutely, absolutely.

Daniel Sih (19:09.242)

Ha ha ha.

Daniel Sih (19:14.97)

Yeah. Look again, I, yes, I align with Jonathan Haidt on this. The research is increasingly strong. It's the link between anxiety and the use of social media and depression is now causative. It's not correlative, meaning we can say pretty confidently that spending three hours on TikTok will cause anxiety and depression, particularly in teenage girls through puberty. So look, I've got no hesitation to say that as a society,

Jamie (19:15.709)

Yeah, this is a tough one.

Daniel Sih (19:43.238)

we should basically be banning social media until you're 16 years old. Particularly because social media like TikTok and Snapchat, Instagram are so addictive in their design now, and they're so not about connecting socially. They are really about training your brain to be anxious and addicted. But the challenge is 16 is incredibly hard when all of your other friends are only socializing on social media. So I don't want to say to an individual parent,

You should do this or you have to do this, but I would definitely say to slow down as much as you possibly can. And then when they do get Instagram, TikTok, if they get them, try to give them just one and limit it to let's say 20 minutes a day through parental controls. So they're getting 20 minutes of addictive, poker machine type training on their brain rather than three hours. The average.

The average teenage girl, no, the average teenager in America spends three to five hours a day on social media. That is almost a full -time job. And in the UK, there was strong research that shows as soon as a child spends more than three hours a day on social media, their anxiety, depression and suicide risk factors increase significantly, which is why every kid is anxious when they use social media. So,

We really have to see this as the new smoking. It will eventually be legislated, but right now parents are caught in a hard place where kids are all addicted, not because of them, but because we've given them highly addictive tools. And so how can you slow them down? My daughter ended up with, I accepted Snapchat at 15 and then Instagram at 17, but again, 20 minutes a day. When she was 14, she really wanted Snapchat.

and Instagram, because all of her friends had it. And we had lots of loving, thoughtful conversations. We reflected on it. I ended up saying, look, I want to say yes, but I just can't. But what can I say yes to? And she wanted to do a lot of other stuff. So I said, how about I give you $200 and it's your Instagram tax. And you can do whatever you want with your $200, but give it another year. And she was really happy. So sometimes you've got to pull whatever levers you've got.

Daniel Sih (22:10.499)

and slow them down. But it's for their health. Anyways, a long rant. I'm sorry, Jamie. Hopefully there was something new to on that.

Jamie (22:14.454)

No, no, that's not a rant. It's incredibly useful and you're teaching entrepreneurship, negotiation, a lot of wonderful skills right there.

Daniel Sih (22:23.762)

Well, the funny thing is I actually got her to write me a persuasive text because that's what they were doing at school about why Instagram would destroy your brain and your ability to learn. And she wrote a fantastic, well thought out, convincing text. And then I read it and because she did such a good job, I almost said yes. And then I just kept reading more of the research and I'm like, even though you understand it, I still can't give it to you because...

It's so addictive, you know, you can understand it's addictive, but it's still addictive. And so yeah, it's a tricky, it's a tricky juggle.

Jamie (23:00.794)

And it is particularly for what I would categorize as the conscious parents, those like yourself who are very aware of the challenges or the dangers, whatever word you want to use. I don't want to be sensationalist, but it's challenging for those parents to hold back when the whole society is, you know, just being a bit less mindful about how they give their kids technology and social media in particular.

Daniel Sih (23:14.072)

Absolutely.

Jamie (23:29.218)

You know, it's a big shift to turn like when you talk about government reform and, you know, shifting the mindset of a nation or a society, right?

Daniel Sih (23:39.768)

look, and there's big money behind it. know, Alphabet, which owns Google is a trillion dollar business. know, Meta is almost a trillion dollar business. Like there is money here and where there's money, there's power. But look, we do have hope. I mean, what I do is I go from school to school. I speak to parents. Sometimes we roll out my book, like to all parents at cost price. So don't make an income from that. But the key is to, and I've got an e -learning course, which basically is free for parents so they can watch a video and talk together.

What I've found is you can get micro communities, so schools, churches, clubs. If, you can get a lot of parents talking about the same things, not coming up with rules, but at least saying, actually let's make, you know, high school, the norm for phones, let's make 15, 16, the norm for social media and have limits on how much time the kids can have. Then you're not the only parent whose child doesn't have Instagram when they're 10. and that makes a tremendous difference. So I think we.

We have to start there. I don't have the energy to be, you know, fighting legislation in government and it's not my skill or my, or my wheelhouse, but, we can encourage and support each other in small groups as parents to talk, to inform ourselves and to make healthy, loving choices, to slow down tech so that our kids can have the, the minds, hearts and relationships to drive the AI economy when they're older. It's not an anti -tech message.

Jamie (25:06.434)

Well said, well said. So tell us a bit more about the course, or tell our listeners a little bit more about the course.

Daniel Sih (25:11.302)

yeah, so look, I'm all free. If you go to raisinghumans .au, raisinghumans .au, you can get five free videos. I'm just about to flip it over so that you can get the whole course for free. Just because I see such a need on this. There's 15 videos. Each video explains a different part of what it means to be a tech healthy parent and as part of a broader framework, how to grade kids up in a healthy way. And

there's questions at the end. So the intention is to watch it with two or three parents if you can have a conversation because it's the conversations that create the culture that's that shape the microcosm that allow us to start to take back control of our kids culture in a healthy way. So yeah, RaisingHumans .au five free videos, but probably by the time you sign up the whole course will be free. I'm just flipping that around right now. We'll go from there.

Jamie (26:04.546)

incredibly generous and as we talked about, touched on earlier in the call, we've got to equip ourselves with the tools, the knowledge as parents, right? In order to be more informed and more conscious, particularly as the world evolves digitally. do check that out. How does the course relate to the book? Is there a tie in or are they related?

Daniel Sih (26:25.27)

Yeah, I look, I basically, so the course originally was a three, a three evening course based on the book. And I just started to get so many parents asked for the course and it's, it's, it's kind of a side hustle. Parenting is kind of a side hustle. I mainly train people in productivity and do YouTube stuff. So, I was like, how, how can we get parents informed?

when I can't travel everywhere and so it's basically my best content. It broadens from the book but it also doesn't have everything in the book so it's a similar framework but it's helpful still to read the book which is a two -hour parenting read. It's a quick fast practical guide so you you can do both or you can do either but you'll get the main content.

Jamie (27:09.27)

It's a wonderfully impactful and generous side hustle, Daniel. So thank you for what you're doing in this space. OK, selfish question. So productivity king and, know, you know, I'm an entrepreneur in my own space outside of podcasting. And I'm sure our listeners would love to get some benefit from this question. What sort of tools do you use in your day to amplify your productivity? Email is one of the biggest.

Daniel Sih (27:19.59)

Yep.

Jamie (27:34.702)

killers of productivity. How do you manage your email? Are there any tips or tricks? I know that's a big question and a broad question.

Daniel Sih (27:35.995)

Yep.

Daniel Sih (27:40.782)

well, I have tips and tricks. In fact, I'll do a shameless plug. I have a straight like I have, I created Australia's leading inbox zero course, meaning the, the practices and tools how to get your inbox to zero each day and spend less time on email. So email Ninja is a course that I started the business with. So if you go to email, ninja .au, you can discover how to create working folders, how to set up a killer archive, how to streamline the way you spend time on email and

and get your inbox to zero each day. So emailninja .au will get you started. But yes, so I am an inbox zero person. I get my inbox to zero. Now it's probably two, three times a week, but I'm pretty good at email because of the tools that I've used. So that's email. What do I use? I use, so I think everyone needs a great calendar, a great use of email, a great to -do list.

and to have that integrated. Well, they're the foundations, I think, at least the foundational tools. So, yeah, I use things for Mac because I'm Mac based for my to -do list. But, you know, there are lots of different apps out there like Microsoft to -do or to -do list. The key is that you know how to use them and you know how to have a two level list of projects and tasks where you're breaking things down and doing the next steps. And my calendar, I'm just a big time blocker. Meaning if you look at my calendar, you will see

times for me to do the things that are concentrated, focused work. don't just have meetings with others. And I actually am very rigorous in using my schedule to shape when I write a podcast, when I do a YouTube video, you know, when do I see kind of do client preparation, et cetera. They're three ideas. Obviously I use heaps and heaps of technology. I use chat GPT. I use lots of AI. I use Evernote. Yeah, there's lots of different tools. use Trello.

for shared projects.

Jamie (29:38.326)

Incredible, great advice and I hope our listeners took something out of that. I know I always do. Daniel, thank you for your time, your generosity today. That website again for the course.

Daniel Sih (29:48.665)

yeah, RaisingHumans .au

Jamie (29:52.226)

We will pop that in the show notes. Thanks again and definitely hope we cross paths again soon.

Daniel Sih (29:57.102)

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much, Jamie.

Jamie (29:59.064)

Cheers, bye for now.