The Psychology of Parenting in the Tech Age -SE3EP6 - Briton Kolber
This week on the podcast is Briton Kolber—a seasoned psychologist with a unique focus on geek-centered therapy.
Since 2012, Briton has run a private practice, aiding clients by integrating elements of geek culture into the therapeutic process. With an intimate understanding of human behavior, he brings invaluable insights into mental wellness, particularly for those who resonate with geek culture.
But that's not all! Briton is also the author of the enthralling book, 'Not
Fishy Enough: A Ridiculous Parable About Finding Worth Through
Self-Acceptance.' Perfect for kids aged 8-12, this captivating journey comes complete with a 'Commentary, Self-Help, & Discussion' section that deep-dives into crucial topics like self-esteem, societal expectations, and critical thinking, offering actionable strategies for you and your youngsters.
Briton joins us to shed light on how digitalization influences our kids' mental health, the unique benefits of geek-centered therapy, and tips on how parents can better navigate and support their children in this fast-moving, tech-infused world. Get ready for an enlightening conversation with Briton Kolber!
Connect with Briton
· Instagram: @psychologyMetaphors
· Email: author@notfishyenough.com
· Website: NotFishyEnough.com
This Episode is brought to you by Skill Samurai – Coding & STEM Academy www.skillsamurai.com.au
AI-Generated Transcription:
Jamie:
Welcome to Parenting in a Digital Age, the podcast that explores the unique challenges and opportunities of raising children in today's tech-driven world. In each episode we dive into insightful conversations with experts and thought leaders to provide practical guidance for navigating the digital landscape and life as parents. Today we have a very special guest who is not only well versed in psychology, but is also a keen observer of the geek culture and intellectual pursuits. Briton Kolber has been in private practice since 2012, specializing in geek-centered therapy. As someone who has spent a lifetime understanding the complexities of human behavior, Briton brings a unique perspective on mental wellbeing, especially for those who identify with geek culture.
Briton has also written a book, it's called Not Fishy Enough, a ridiculous parable about finding worth through self-acceptance. And this captivating read not only takes you on an adventure of aquatic proportions, but it also comes with a commentary self-help and discussion section designed to dive deeper into themes like self-worth, social pressure and critical thinking, providing actionable guidance for both you and your kids. It's ideal for children aged 8 to 12.
In today's episode, Briton will help us explore how the digital age is affecting our children's mental health, how specialized therapy like geek-centered therapy can offer unique advantages, and how we as parents can better understand and support our children in this fast-paced, tech-savvy world. So buckle up as we embark on this insightful journey with Briton Kolber.
Jamie:
Briton, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Please share with our listeners in your own words what you do and what you are passionate about.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
I am a therapist and an author and what I'm really passionate about is, well, among many things, it's about taking difficult to understand ideas and psychology and making them as simple as possible. So, I like to use metaphors to take something that might take, you know, a few weeks to learn or master and try to make it as simple as possible so someone can see like, oh, that, I can use that.
Jamie:
I like that a lot. Now
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
to.
Jamie:
much of our discussion today is gonna revolve around the concepts in your book.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Thank you.
Jamie:
So perhaps you can give our listeners a bit of a synopsis about your book, Not Fishy Enough, a ridiculous parable about finding worth through self-acceptance.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Well, let's see, with spoilers or without spoilers?
Jamie:
Ah, maybe without spoilers for the moment.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Okay, so it is about a... Okay, necessary spoiler. It's about, well, this guy is a crab that he was adopted by fish and living in an isolated tide pool. So without any other crabs as an example around, he just thinks he's an incompetent fish. And so when he starts to compare himself to others, he has to eat with his fins, and that's just unfishy, and he can't swim properly. He starts running into problems in daily life. And so then he starts to discover things in his environment that are different enough that he can start questioning, well, what if I'm not a fish? What if I'm something else? And that is really similar to a lot of the things people, my kids have experienced, things my clients, as they have experienced to talk to me about as psychotherapist, how can I possibly accept myself if I'm different? Does that make sense?
Jamie:
It makes a lot of sense and, um, Britain, we get a lot of authors on the show, all of whom make a remarkable impact in the world. But I'm going to, I'm going to go so far as to say your book should be required reading in schools. And yeah, I don't know if you've heard that before. Maybe you
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
That's
Jamie:
have,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
a bold
Jamie:
but
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
move, sure.
Jamie:
you know, yeah. And look, I think it should be a cartoon. I think it should be a case study. You know, the discussion, you know, your book has a section towards the end. that has discussion points and questions and they're thought provoking and they're conversations that parents and kids should be having or even teachers and parents and other teachers and kids and educators.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
So maybe, I don't know, let's talk about social pressure and expectations, a theme in the book. Maybe you can shed some light on how parents can perhaps equip their kids to navigate social expectations, especially in this world of social media.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
That's an excruciatingly good question. So social expectations seem to have gotten bigger. I mean, there are people that have cited this in more detail than I. But the social pressure is exacerbated, of course, by the vivid comparisons on social media. you know, a girl is 10 years old and starts to, you know, be more self-aware and looks at, well, my body doesn't look like that. Something must be wrong with me. So there's this, you know, there's this extra pressure, but, you know, in all sides, you know, I'm not the right gender. I don't look manly enough. I don't look female enough. I don't look strong enough. Whatever that is, I'm not competent enough as an artist. Maybe I should just stop. understood this is I'm kind of extrapolating from Brene Brown's work, especially The Gifts of Imperfection and Daring Greatly. So she calls shame as the master emotion, right? And so shame is the master emotion and the opposite, you know, which is about worth. The opposite of that is, well, self-worth, and that's based on Kristin Neff's work. Self-worth is in self-acceptance, is deciding, I'm okay. But how do you, you know, deciding I'm okay doesn't mean giving up on aspiration. It doesn't mean giving up on standards. It just means a starting point of self-compassion. What if you're okay? What if you're worth love and belonging just the way you are, and then you can build from that? Well, that gives you a safe platform to build on. It gives you a bit more of a foundation to grow from. I can give you a specific example from that nattering on too much. I was talking to my child, I hope he's okay with me saying this, but he was just recently telling me like, hey, I've got, you know, I had my shirt off or my UV could see my back and he's like, I've got back hair. He's 11. What do I do about that? And I take, I do the same thing that is in the book. I even reference the book because he helped me, you know, he was part of my beta testing. Like, this is so funny. This is a word. Can you understand this? And we took the concept of liking yourself. And the thing about liking yourself is that you don't care as much about other people's opinions. You know, like ages ago, like our... parents most likely grew up with expressions like sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. We've kind of pivoted culture, at least in the US, to words do matter and words are everything and words provoke this anxiety which must control the environment. We must say these are the right things to say, these are the right thoughts to think. Well, it gets a bit rigid. And so I think it's important to balance, to have care for the people, but also to balance it out with a sense of how can I make this fun and playful and also safe enough to like me for the way I am. You know, because you like yourself the way you are. You start developing this sense of safety internally. resilience. And this goes right with what Stephen Porges is saying about polyvagal theory and feeling safe in your body, safe enough to connect with other people. So I'm passionate about the subject. Let me know if I've rambled on too much or if you're tracking what I'm saying.
Jamie:
Fantastic,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Okay.
Jamie:
fantastic.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
So one of my first examples of this is an old friend of mine has, like, can't hear in one ear and the other is He grew up with a lot of self-conscious. stuff, you know, about like, you know, I look like this, I can't always hear what's going on. I feel terrible and missing conversations. And my friends and I used something that I later learned was rough humor. So rough humor in, you know, various cultures is like the devil's work and like that's, that's evil. And in some cultures, it is like part of where, you know, part of life, you know, part of how you get along and you help people accept kind ribbing, you know, you poke him a little bit and you're like, hey, are you okay, mate? You know? And what we did is we sort of, you know, teased him a little bit about how we said things and enough, but we're supportive enough in a way that he grew to be really resilient. Really just like, I'm okay. You can make a joke if you want to, but I'm okay. And that's kind of where I started learning, hey, there's a way to worry about what other people think and try to make sure everyone's nice. And there's another way to just help your kids and yourself feel strong and safe on the inside.
Jamie:
There's a lot to unpack there. So how
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
is a
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Ha ha
Jamie:
how
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
ha.
Jamie:
is a parent? Do I help my child like themselves? Is it a matter of modeling and saying certain
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
things about my own self? Is it does it come from the questions we ask or a combination of those things?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Well, it's less about the specific things to do and more about the how. You know, like the feeling of safety comes from you. So if you feel safe within your own sense of self, you can learn how to do that. There's self-work, there's the Mata prayer, loving kindness, meditation, part of the Buddhist tradition, it's in certain meditation practices. Kristen Neff writes great things about self-compassion that in turn came from Buddhism. But do you have a practice of like gratitude and lacking yourself and uh... go do Brene Brown's three ways to deal with shame, that's self-acceptance, mindfulness, and common humanity. I am also imperfect, and this person has something that they're working on, they're not quite ripe yet, they're not quite done yet with this, but having a physical thing they're uncomfortable with. If you do those three things about dealing with shame and self-acceptance, then you can listen from a state of safety to your kids. Well, what's it like? feeling that your belly's too big. What's it like feeling that you can't seem to concentrate in math class and all your other peers can? And then when you create a safe place for them emotionally to express, then in that safe context they might learn that they can feel okay. and not judged. And then again, it's less about steps after that and more sort of a co-creating this place of safety, play. Does that make sense? I mean, am I being
Jamie:
Yeah,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
too obscure with the metaphors?
Jamie:
no,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
not at all. Not at all. So shame and feeling unworthy. Does it manifest different in children than in adults?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Within adults, it's sort of cemented in. That was one of the reasons I started writing the book, was that... I would run into someone say in their 30s in their job and they couldn't take a compliment. They couldn't, the promotion that they were, they couldn't even try for the promotion because they didn't think they were good enough. So with adults it's a little bit more of a, you know, a creation of layers. You know, a great way to describe this is have you ever tried to draw something or sign your name on a piece of paper that is over a rough piece of wood or over some rough rock? you do, the past leaves a mark. You know, it leaves an impact on what you're trying to do now. So adults seem to have more accumulations, children seem to be a little bit more flexible to you're okay. But it still needs to be with listening first. You know, it's my mentor, Amanda Franklin used to say, it's only when we understand precisely how difficult their situation is, they are inclined to accept our influence. So it's really not a just, like yourself, be fine, you're good. Doesn't work, haven't seen it yet. But it's a process of, well, how is it? How terrible is it? And then... when they show you a sense of, like with an exhale or release of tension, the shoulder's like, okay, you do get it. And just like Chris Voss says, and never split the difference, there's a kind of, yeah, that's right. But when they say that's right, that you get it, then you've got a bit of a window to say what you think is important. Do you have any questions in it? Does that make sense in your?
Jamie:
Yeah, no, it makes amazing sense. You talk a bit about self-criticism as well and
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
critical thinking in your book.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Great.
Jamie:
So how can parents foster a balanced self-development or self-assessment without tipping their children into excessive
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
self-criticism?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Oh, I love that you brought that up. So I'm super passionate about this one because as I've been studying, so I haven't done it as much lately, but improvisation is a thing that I've spent a lot of time with. And there's a lovely woman named Ann Mabry who pointed out while she was teaching classes in improvisation for a certain age range. there was a point where they were having playtime, and like this was just fun, they would do all kinds of crazy things, and then something would turn on, and be like, oh, I can't do this. You know, I'm too cool for this, or I can't take that risk. And ever since then, it was fascinating, what's happening? And so there's apparently developmentally, around between age eight and 12, there's a kind of self-consciousness that comes up. And at the same time, there's a kind of comparison. Well, comparison isn't bad. People like to say comparison is the thief of joy. But I think it's the starting point. So if we don't have comparison, you know, this is not like this, I'm not like this. You know, one of these things is not like the others, as I said, in Sesame Street. There's no critical thinking. There's no this is like that, you know. The critical thinking is about numbers. There's no should. There's no, not good enough, you know, there's no unworthy. Critical thinking is whether it's A or B or it's yellow or black or it's Pantone colors, whether it's a specific number for each thing, that's critical thinking. But comparison can lead to critical thinking and like, okay, I'm not running as fast as I want to, I can do things to run faster. or I don't feel good when I eat, I can not just, I'm a terrible person because I don't eat well. It's just like, I can change these things. But comparison can lead to also judgment, which is, well, you're just too fat. You know, you need to change. Or, well, you're just not quite enough. Could you just be different? You know, that's a shift that is more personal and feels gross. You know, you might feel justified having a judgment. People love making judgments a lot because they feel strong. Oh, that sucks. You know, this is stupid. That guy's a loser. You know, they feel a little sense of like, oh, I'm better. But it's kind of a trap. So if you can get out of the trap yourself, you can be an example to your children. And if you can start to think about the difference between critical thinking and judgment, it's a great tool to teach your children.
Jamie:
certainly is you have this concept where you discuss a concept about doing the same thing harder or doing the same thing differently.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
And that's intriguing. So maybe you could explain how parents might be able to guide their children in understanding when it's time to pivot and try a different approach sometimes
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure,
Jamie:
in life.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
sure. That is a vexing question. Honestly, I don't know if I have a specific guideline, but I think there's a great, it's great to just have the idea in mind, to be open to it. So, for example, if you keep trying the same thing over and over, it's hard to know, am I making progress? But I think in the very least, it's always worth curiosity. It's always worth sort of a, am I just doing more of the same thing, and it's kind of a definition of insanity? Or is there something else I can do? You know, like if someone is drawing and they're trying to shade a particular thing, they're trying to get a particular thing right. If they keep doing the exact same thing over and over, they're probably going to get the same result. But it doesn't mean they have to give up. Right? So there's a kind of meaning of failure that's really important. You know, is failure feedback or is it diagnosis? You know, I can't play the trombone. I'm not a trombone playing person or I haven't figured out yet how to do it. You know, but chances are if life has not given you... the dexterity, or if you have like, you know, a physical difficulty where you can't actually reach the trombone, you know, you don't have the range to extend that, it might not make sense for you to continue to do the trombone unless you find a technology that can help you do it. You know, like Stephen Hawking, you know, his decline from being like... brilliant and productive, but also later brilliant and productive, but having to find accommodations. Well he could have tried doing the same thing over and over, or he tried, you know, with help, I believe it was his wife at the time, I'm not sure, or an assistant. Like, well what can we do that can help you keep doing what you want to do, but we'll try something else. Does that answer it? Maybe a bit,
Jamie:
Yeah,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
maybe it's a bit
Jamie:
it
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
lengthy.
Jamie:
does,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
Britain. That's a great answer. And speaking of trombone, let's
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
talk about accepting hidden talents.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Oh right.
Jamie:
So how can parents perhaps identify and nurture hidden talents in their children?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Well, the hidden talents come out when they're safe enough to be a little weird. There's a... You know, you might find that... they can do things. So, for example, I mean, I wouldn't say that my parents were perfect, but in some ways they did just what I needed. So one of the things that I find particularly fun is almost nobody knows that I can imitate lots of different accents. And sometimes it's a bit offensive to try and imitate an accent to someone from that area. But sometimes, say one time I was visiting Northern Ireland, there was a time that was extremely entertaining to me but nobody was offended when he imitated them. You know like if you go to the south you know there's different things you can say you know but even that one sound I got confused a bit it sounds like my southern accent has a little bit of similar sounds but it's a little bit different so I would say that is a hidden talent and the way to nurture a hidden talent is to just notice your children and see what lights them up and see if that's something that you can nurture into something that they enjoy doing and that maybe they can develop some practice and proficiency in. Does that make sense? Okay.
Jamie:
Makes a lot of sense, Brittan, and parents need to be somewhat open and
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
also accepting, not conforming to the view of others. Like a perfect example in our household
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
is my son, he's 19, got involved in live action role playing for parents,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
it's lapping, right?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
Now this is something I would never do, it's something that my family
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
would never conceive of, and at first I was a little taken back. And then I just said, no, I'm going to embrace this. This is, this may
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie:
be his hidden talent. There may be some life pursuit
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
in this. And, you know, and then I went and actually I didn't get involved per se, but I went out
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
and watched and, uh, you know, tried to
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
understand and, and see what the experience was about. And so I'm running
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
around in a battlefield and having a great time with friends, making connections,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
finding his tribe. And, uh, he was, he was, instead of having this sedentary lifestyle, stuck to the gaming device, he was actually out
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
in
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
nature. And there was all the, immediate other benefits that were there when I had this level of acceptance. And
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
so I encourage parents where possible to, you know, as you said, be curious and
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
try and notice what lights them up and finding those hidden
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
talents.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
So that wasn't that wasn't a bad Australian accent.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Oh right, thank
Jamie:
I've
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
you.
Jamie:
got to say, in Australia, like the US, we have many isolated communities, right? There are many
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure. Alright.
Jamie:
pockets of small towns.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right. Like
Jamie:
And
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
if
Jamie:
I
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
you're
Jamie:
think you
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
from Perth, you've got a different sound, right? And
Jamie:
Yeah.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
for versus Brisbane and stuff like that, right? Yeah.
Jamie:
Yeah, I think well actually I think if you're in Adelaide, South Australia, you have a completely different accent a little bit
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Really?
Jamie:
like the South, right?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Okay.
Jamie:
Yeah. And look, you do. I think in the book you explore this topic of growing up in a small town. Am I right?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah. Yes.
Jamie:
Okay, so I think growing up in a small town is definitely different to growing up in the city in terms of social development. What advice would you give to parents perhaps raising children in isolated communities?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
In isolated communities, there's cultivating a sense of safety at home, if you possibly can. I mean, I've talked to people that have grown up, for example, in Paris, Texas, which is the second largest parish in the world. You know, Paris, Texas is a town of about... I think it was about 30,000 the last time I checked. And so the people that thrived there were either the ones who really liked it and sort of felt part of the in-group and the ones who found their own thing. They're like, okay, I'm okay being me. I'm okay at home. My parents are not anxious. My parents are not controlling and trying to make me be a particular way. Those people found a way to thrive. So again, it's almost like working with a pandemic. There's a kind of... If you can't find a way to inoculate yourself against the criticism of others, it works to try to control your environment. But if you control your environment too much, it can be oppressive, it can be really restrictive, and people don't like it for long. So if you can find a way to feel a sense of safety to inoculate yourself against the criticisms and the judgment of other people, you can do that wherever you are.
Jamie:
Yeah, yeah,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
You know?
Jamie:
that's a big topic. You know, and even
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
I struggle with that too, you know, one minute I'm like, I don't care what people think and I'm gonna go out and do this. And then next
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
minute I walk into that room and all of a sudden I do care what people think. And, you know, or at least
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Of course.
Jamie:
I think
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Of course.
Jamie:
I do.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
And so I struggle with that. Any
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah,
Jamie:
tips
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
we all do.
Jamie:
for us adults who struggle with that?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Well, I think Roshi Joan Halifax has this wonderful meditation that I'm a fan of. So it's strong back, soft front. So strong back is, well, I'm living by my values. I know what my values are. You know, I'm gonna try and get, it's better if you do get in touch with this is what I think is right. And then you can... go from there to being open, so the soft front is you're open, you know, without armor or some kind of shielding, you're open to the experience of other people. But that doesn't mean it's useful for you to go into shame all of a sudden, or being extremely self-conscious and guarded and anxious. So it can happen, it's best to practice a little bit, being self-aware, being kind to yourself. So lots of iterative practicing is useful. Thank you. So for example, for you, I would suggest something maybe similar to what I do, which is it's a regular practice. I believe it was Terry Brock that came up with this meditation thing called RAIN. It's basically an algorithm for how to be chill. You know, so there's recognize what's happening in your body, there's allowing this discomfort, I'm uncomfortable in this moment, and then there's this investigation, which is your brain wants something to do, you try to get curious. Why am I uncomfortable here? What's different about this place versus where I was 10 minutes ago? Oh, the people are different. There's a different cluster of people. And then that's uncomfortable. So you want to nurture yourself a bit. It could be listen to music, take a walk, take some deep breaths, give yourself a hug if no one's looking. There's a kind of predictable algorithm. that you're fine. Kind of no matter what. Mostly. Does
Jamie:
Yeah,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
that seem useful or is that too many steps?
Jamie:
that rain.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
I don't
Jamie:
No, I like it.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
hear about
Jamie:
It is useful
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
that.
Jamie:
and
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
it's sometimes just to stop and recognise what's going on
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
is often the missing piece. Certainly for me, I get in this spiral of overthinking things. And
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
so I do like that in your book, you discuss who we think we are and how it affects us. And with children, you know, now having online personas and. Maybe many online personas. You know, how
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie:
can parents help kids reconcile their online identity with their real self?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Well, their online identity may be an aspect of themselves. When, so for example, the, there's some people that do therapeutic online. role-play. So I have some friends that Game to Grow that's based in Seattle. So it used to be for-profit, then it's a non-profit, and they're thriving as far as you know, and some other offshoots of it. But one of the things that therapeutic Dungeons and Dragons and other role-playing things do is they help people connect with another version of themselves. You know, what if I were big and strong? What if I were more mischievous? What if I were funnier? And so people get to try on different ways of being. And according to their work, it seems really therapeutic. So it's, you know, rather than a sense of, this is an inauthentic self, it may be a more expansive sense of, I'm more than, you know, this thing. I mean, I think people are, you know, have different roles with different people. You know, with their friends, you may see a different side. With their teachers, you're going to see a different side. I think they're all this sort of cluster. Especially if you look into internal family systems, there's a whole bunch of this inside. It's kind of like the movie Inside Out, which came out a while ago. It's the same person, but there's different bits. So from those bits, maybe you can find a core self that is more like... And again, you have to get out of autopilot. If you're in autopilot and just busy, without time to yourself, you don't really know who the real you is.
Jamie:
Yeah.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
So if you spend a little bit of time to yourself drawing by yourself, meditating, or just not being entertained or over-scheduled with too many sports and too many activities, spend a little time just messing around, then you can start to discover what's really... feels you because your body changes a little bit. I see this in my, you know, child clients and my adult clients. Sometimes, you know, they have all these multiplicity bits, but sometimes they just, like it's like sparks are coming out of their eyes. Something just lights up and they feel really alive. So when you can see your kids sort of in perceptible, in percent almost perceptively kind of sit a little taller, their eyes get brighter, I think it's great to pay attention. Like what's that? What's that? That's cool, you know. You really like making your friends laugh.
Jamie:
Yeah.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Or you really like building things. Like, you know, it seems to me like... You really like solving engineering problems. You know, my oldest child, like, that's his thing. He's not always interested in socializing. I mean, he is. But really, when he gets to, like, take something apart and... understand how to build something and then blow it up of course. That's his thing.
Jamie:
Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. I think there's two sides to this. You've got the online personas that are reflecting parts of us.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
And you're right, you said something like, when I'm with my father, I'm slightly different to how I am with my wife, but I'm still
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie:
me.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yeah.
Jamie:
But I also think there's this unhealthy side of online personas. And I think that many people, and coming into these pre-teens and teens,
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie:
seeing the societal expectations online and then modifying themselves in this online environment to portray a different version of themselves
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
sure.
Jamie:
and then not being able to live that
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
in their daily lives.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Okay.
Jamie:
What does that create? Surely
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie:
there's something, I don't understand the psychological side of this but
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Right.
Jamie:
I think it's unhealthy.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Yes, okay, absolutely. So I would say that is about the, not just like the multiplicity of identities, but rather the conformity. the inauthenticity and that's kind of like emotional fusion. It's like, I mean this affected me a lot. I would, I've actually learned, I mean I learned over time and I'm mostly unlearning it, this sense of giving up some of my autonomy, my authenticity in exchange for keeping the peace, in exchange for emotional safety. You know, like that's, like giving that up is when kids are with their friends saying, I love this video game. I love Minecraft. And they're like, you still play Minecraft? That's stupid. That's like, 15 years old. Whatever. And they're like, oh well, giving that up is like, well I guess, I don't, maybe I don't like Minecraft that much anymore. Maybe it's... Maybe it's not that good. You know, when you start to compromise what's actually important to you, in order to fit in. You know, like... In the Scandinavian culture has these things called the laws of yontae that I reference where there's a sort of conformity which is really effective in some ways. You create like a sort of monoculture of like this is how you do it, this is how you fit in, you do these things, and you're safe. But that safety comes at a cost of who are you really? I mean Japanese culture does a similar thing. You know, like there's an expression, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. You know, that's a cost to the conformity. So when you're talking about this, you know, being a different persona and giving up who they are, that's a very caustic sort of conformity that leaves scars. You know, you feel safe and you fit in, but who you are is a sham over time.
Jamie:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we're seeing more and more of that, not just in adults, but in kids. We gonna lighten it up a little bit, Brittan.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
Fun question we like to ask our guests as we start to round off our chat today. If we had a time machine and Brittan could go back to your 12 year old self
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie:
and give yourself just one piece of advice, what would that be for you?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Alright, one piece of advice. It would be... Less advice and more reassurance. Like, it's gonna be mostly okay. And part of that is it's going to be mostly okay and pain is part of life, but suffering through it is optional. You don't have to be miserable. You don't have to focus on everything that's wrong. Just try to focus on things that are right. Maybe that was
Jamie:
Right.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
too much. But I don't know.
Jamie:
That's
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
That's
Jamie:
tremendous. That's tremendous.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
what
Jamie:
And
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
I'd say.
Jamie:
I'm going to take all these one day and put them into a book. And the things I learned from 100 podcast guests or something like that.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Oh, fantastic.
Jamie:
So, Britton, tell us where can our listeners find the book? If you've got a child sort of between eight and 12 or there or thereabouts, this
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure.
Jamie:
is essential reading in my view. I'm not getting paid to say that, but I think this is an important book. for any family, not fishing enough, a ridiculous parable about finding worth through self-acceptance. Where do I get it?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Well, if you just put in the title in your search engine, you will find it. And it will be on, could be Barnes and Noble, could be bookshop.org, could be amazon.com. It's distributed by Ingram and Amazon. So chances are wherever you want to find it, you can, you know, it'll be there online. You can order it. And some stores are carrying it.
Jamie:
Fantastic. And how can our listeners reach out and find you or connect with you on socials? What's the best place for them or best way for them to do that?
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
Sure. Well, Instagram, psychology metaphors, sort of, ant symbol, psychology metaphors. But not fishenough.com is a great start. That has sort of everything, you know, my social things are connected there.
Jamie:
Fantastic. We'll make sure that is in the show notes. Britain Colbert, thank you so much for your insightful deep dive into this wonderful topic today. I know that many of our listeners would have gained a lot from this. I know I certainly did. Thanks for your time and generosity and hope we cross paths again in the future.
Briton Kolber (That guy/The one with the nose):
It would be lovely. Thank you so much.
Jamie:
Cheers.
